Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Technical support and discussion of Newsbin Version 6 series.

Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Enlade » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:10 pm

Just upgraded to the V6. I can't seem to find a way to have V6 show all the headers instead of grouping them. I know that you took it out of the internet search for version 5, but did you now take it out of the regular group header listing as well (in V6)? If yes, then I have a full list of reasons why that is a problem for me, but I suspect it is just my ignorance at using the new version. Also, I am not sure what to search for in the forums. I thought it might be "grouping headers" or "header threads" or something like that, but no luck finding anything. How do I turn off that grouping feature, that groups the headers into so thread list or whatever it is doing. Don't like that at all....very much a problem for me.
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Quade » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:28 pm

Can't turn it off. For an equally large number of reasons. I have a todo list item to let you load the list and expand them all automatically but, it's probably not going to make the initial 6 release.
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Enlade » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:02 pm

I kind of thought you were going that direction when you removed the ability to view individual headers in V5.5x's search feature. I have to say that this is disappointing. Basically, no matter how many neat features that you add to a newsreader client there is one main overall guiding principle that you need to adhere to. And that is simply that the client needs to make it as easy as possible for users to quickly find and download whatever they are looking for.

Now, you make a good product, so you obviously do this to a great extent. And clearly it does seem like grouping headers into threads that can then be downloaded in one swoop would also do this. At least, one would think such a thing if this was a perfect world. But it’s not a perfect world. In our imperfect world we have people that mistakenly forget to upload one of the components, or files that have been corrupted, or people that upload junk with passwords. In this real world the inability to quickly see the individual headers is a real disadvantage (or to be able to quickly download the first RAR file to peak into it). The point is that if we can see all of the headers then we can quickly ignore the junk without having to even think twice about it. Worse case I have to download one file to peak at what is inside the RAR. Again, you make a good product (the best), so I am not saying that this somehow makes your program bad, but I am saying that you are moving in the wrong direction on this issue. It clearly makes it harder for people to distinguish between what is junk and what is not junk. And that should be at the top of your list of guiding principles.

Again, this is a matter of efficiency. Maybe for those people that download one file at a time, or that actually use newsgroups to read threads of conversations then the grouping of threads would be helpful, but like most people, my downloading is more assembly-line like; however, now you are forcing me to go back to the pre-industrial age (so to speak). This is because I now have to consider each download individually to be sure I am getting what I want and that slows me down drastically.

Ok, you have heard this before, so I’ll leave it at that. It’s just that this and the similar changes you made to searching (in V5) have really made my use of newsgroups slow and painful.
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Quade » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:33 pm

You simply might want to stick with 5.59 then.

The files are compacted together because:

1 - It's much faster and uses less RAM.

2 - It's how I like to see the posts listed.

You lose nothing. Junk isn't compacted with the files in the set and you can still expand and just download one rar.

Again, this is a matter of efficiency. Maybe for those people that download one file at a time, or that actually use newsgroups to read threads of conversations then the grouping of threads would be helpful, but like most people, my downloading is more assembly-line like; however, now you are forcing me to go back to the pre-industrial age (so to speak). This is because I now have to consider each download individually to be sure I am getting what I want and that slows me down drastically.


You're not making any kind of sense here. There's no "threading". Related files and their pars are simply combined together.
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Enlade » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:31 am

Quade wrote:1 - It's much faster and uses less RAM.


Yea, and this is kinda why you are going wrong. You are losing track of the big picture (at least on this issue; you get so much right elsewhere). I know as a programmer it is neat to save a bit of RAM and make things run microseconds faster, but the expense is that it makes it harder for people to separate the junk from the good stuff. A newsgroup client is supposed to be moving in the direction of making it easier to find what we are looking for. As I say, you definitely do a good job at doing this, which makes your app great, but combining the headers doesn't do this. It's a step in the wrong direction. I'll explain myself further below.


Quade wrote:2 - It's how I like to see the posts listed.


Yes, and that is good for you. I am not saying that you can't like viewing the posts the way you like to view them. What I am saying is why force me to view the post the way I don't like to view them. And it isn't even a matter of taste here. I really could care less how I view the headers so long as it allows me to be more efficent at finding and downloading what I want, instead of wasting time reading or downloading junk. So, you say you like the way it looks and I say ok thats nice...I like the way it looks too, but it makes my life difficult and innefficent. So, no matter how much I like the way it looks to compact the headers, it is still not as efficent for me to view them that way.


Quade wrote:You lose nothing. Junk isn't compacted with the files in the set and you can still expand and just download one rar.


This is just completely wrong. There is plenty of junk that is compacted.

There are people that post password protected RARs and that is Junk and it is compacted. Those people name the rars the same as other people that are posting the actual good stuff. I need to be able to distinguish between those junk posts and the good posts. The easiest way is to download one RAR file and open it to see what is inside (if it has another RAR file inside then it is likely something to avoid...probably password protected).

There are also people that post partial uploads (missing a file or two) and that is likely junk and it is compacted. I need to be able to judge whether there might be enough Par2s to cover partial uploads (or just move on to the next person that has uploaded something similar). This is much easier with I can view all the headers.

There are downloads that have corrupted files (that show up only as different sized RARs) and it is probably junk and yet, it is compacted. Again, maybe the Par2s will be enough. A quick look at the headers will tell me this (or at least give me enough info to move on to something else if it is not clear).

So, there is plenty of junk that is compacted that I can more easily avoid if I can see all of the headers (and if I can download a single RAR). The point is that normally I can just make a quick judgement and move on if I am not sure. There are always other posters posting simliar stuff further down the list. But I can't make those quick judgements without seeing the headers (and maybe downloading one RAR file).

Moreover, compacting the headers causes me to have to look at everything that is in between the good stuff. That is, I have to look at the stuff between the possible good stuff which is most definitely junk. For instance, lets say you have a list of headers like this:

This is some junk that you should avoid.rar
And here is more stuff that is not good stuff.rar
This is a header with good stuff.r01
This is a header with good stuff.r02
This is a header with good stuff.r03
This is a header with good stuff.r04
This is a header with good stuff.r05
This is a header with good stuff.r06
This is a header with good stuff.r07
This is a header with good stuff.rar
This is a header with junk here.rar
And here is another header with junk.rar
Please download this junk.rar
And here is more good Stuff.r01
And here is more good Stuff.r02
And here is more good Stuff.r03
And here is more good Stuff.r04
And here is more good Stuff.r05
And here is more good Stuff.r06
And here is more good Stuff.r07
And here is more good Stuff.r08
And here is more good Stuff.r09
And here is more good Stuff.r10
And here is more good Stuff.rar
And here is some good Stuff...not.rar
And more fake good Stuff here.rar
And more not good stuff here.rar

It is pretty easy to ignore all the junk between the two good items. I mean, look at it. Look at how the good stuff just jumps right at you. But with V6, I now see something like this:

This is some junk that you should avoid.rar
And here is more stuff that is not good stuff.rar
This is a header with good stuff.rar
This is a header with junk here.rar
And here is another header with junk.rar
Please download this junk.rar
And here is more good Stuff.rar
And here is some good Stuff...not.rar
And more fake good Stuff here.rar
And more not good stuff here.rar

Clearly this is more difficult to find the good stuff and it causes me to have to read through all the junk to find it. Where I once could completely ignore the junk I now have to read a lot of it.

Of course there are things I can do to function with this restriction and I will, but that isn't my point. My point is that NOT allowing people to view all the headers is a step in the wrong direction. If you want to have both views then that is one thing, but removing the ability to view all headers seems like a mistake. It will definitely make my newsgrouping life harder, I know that because, for some time now, I have been living with the similar change that you made to the search results; and it has been quite tedious (particularly when trying to avoid the password protected junk).
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby DThor » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:34 am

Try to keep in mind that your take of 'neat to save some ram ' doesn't translate to the real world where end users were constantly complaining that memory and load times were a real issue. Given someone wants to go to the hassle of maintaining local spools as opposed to inet search or nzb, that is in fact a key issue. To say nothing of a clearer to read, more compact display , which despite your complaints, it is. Obviously not perfect, hell, it's usenet, but nested posts with the option to expand? It's significantly easier to scan. Different? Yup. For every old timer that doesn't like change, there's dozens of others that are really happy with new performance. V5 is still there for you.

It's really not worth getting into a verbose debate about, it's absolutely worth throwing out some suggestions, feel free to come up with ideas, but 'toss what you've done to make it like the old version ' isn't likely to accomplish much. The Newsbin guys are still working on it, too, cleaning up usenet is herding seagulls, so it's an ongoing process.

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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby cat_man » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:36 am

Enlade, you may have missed it in the forums, but you can show all headers by selecting all (Ctrl A) and then right arrow to expand.
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Quade » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:23 am

It's kind of pointless to take this any further. The design of 6 has the data pre-compacted in the database so, there's no way to get the 5.59 display. It's impossible. At best you can get an "expand all" and "contract all" button, which is on my todo list.

So 6 "is what it is" and you have to decide if you want to use it or stick with 5.59. I hear your argument and what I'm hearing is that you don't like it because it's different. Functionally, there's nothing you can do in 5.59 you can't also do in 6.

You DO know that you can expand the compacted items and look inside? So, all the discussion about "download one rar" or "look at the file sizes to see if they're complete" can still be done now.

6 can filter out encrypted files to. Just add them to the download list and they'll fail if they're encrypted (and you have the option set).
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Re: Show all headers (turn off header threading)...

Postby Enlade » Sun Jun 05, 2011 1:40 pm

Quade wrote:It's kind of pointless to take this any further. The design of 6 has the data pre-compacted in the database so, there's no way to get the 5.59 display. It's impossible. At best you can get an "expand all" and "contract all" button, which is on my todo list....

...You DO know that you can expand the compacted items and look inside? So, all the discussion about "download one rar" or "look at the file sizes to see if they're complete" can still be done now.


I think that should work fine for my needs, thank you. Why you get me all riled up like that? :D
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